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	<title>Comments on: A Rather Cranky Post on Verisimilitude in Fantasy</title>
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	<link>http://www.blackgate.com/2009/01/26/a-rather-cranky-post-on-verisimilitude-in-fantasy/</link>
	<description>Adventures in Fantasy Literature</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 17 May 2012 03:25:51 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Journey into Links &#171; Torque Control</title>
		<link>http://www.blackgate.com/2009/01/26/a-rather-cranky-post-on-verisimilitude-in-fantasy/comment-page-1/#comment-638</link>
		<dc:creator>Journey into Links &#171; Torque Control</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Mar 2009 14:22:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.blackgate.com/?p=1337#comment-638</guid>
		<description>[...] found these three posts at the Black Gate blog, which develop a conversation about women warriors in fantasy, [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] found these three posts at the Black Gate blog, which develop a conversation about women warriors in fantasy, [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Black Gate &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Verisimilitude and the Woman Warrior, With Some Relevance to Fantasy Tropes</title>
		<link>http://www.blackgate.com/2009/01/26/a-rather-cranky-post-on-verisimilitude-in-fantasy/comment-page-1/#comment-499</link>
		<dc:creator>Black Gate &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Verisimilitude and the Woman Warrior, With Some Relevance to Fantasy Tropes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Feb 2009 10:37:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.blackgate.com/?p=1337#comment-499</guid>
		<description>[...] by a self-labeled polemic on the topic of fictional women as kick-ass fighters that referenced my post of two weeks ago. Which put me in mind of a long-running, intermittent sort-of argument I&#8217;ve had with the most [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] by a self-labeled polemic on the topic of fictional women as kick-ass fighters that referenced my post of two weeks ago. Which put me in mind of a long-running, intermittent sort-of argument I&#8217;ve had with the most [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Against Tiny Kung Fu Women: A Polemic &#171; Threat Quality Press</title>
		<link>http://www.blackgate.com/2009/01/26/a-rather-cranky-post-on-verisimilitude-in-fantasy/comment-page-1/#comment-489</link>
		<dc:creator>Against Tiny Kung Fu Women: A Polemic &#171; Threat Quality Press</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Feb 2009 17:42:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.blackgate.com/?p=1337#comment-489</guid>
		<description>[...] It&#8217;s come up when I&#8217;ve talked to friends about upcoming Wonder Woman movies.  Judith Berman mentioned something like it on the Black Gate blog, recently.  And it came up again when I saw the [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] It&#8217;s come up when I&#8217;ve talked to friends about upcoming Wonder Woman movies.  Judith Berman mentioned something like it on the Black Gate blog, recently.  And it came up again when I saw the [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Gerald Brandt &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Weekly Links 20080201</title>
		<link>http://www.blackgate.com/2009/01/26/a-rather-cranky-post-on-verisimilitude-in-fantasy/comment-page-1/#comment-466</link>
		<dc:creator>Gerald Brandt &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Weekly Links 20080201</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Feb 2009 14:20:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.blackgate.com/?p=1337#comment-466</guid>
		<description>[...] if a writer is literate enough to write and publish a book, couldn’t he or she manage some basic research into natural history and astronomy? There is enough ignorance in the world without broadcasting [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] if a writer is literate enough to write and publish a book, couldn’t he or she manage some basic research into natural history and astronomy? There is enough ignorance in the world without broadcasting [...]</p>
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		<title>By: braak</title>
		<link>http://www.blackgate.com/2009/01/26/a-rather-cranky-post-on-verisimilitude-in-fantasy/comment-page-1/#comment-447</link>
		<dc:creator>braak</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jan 2009 14:39:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.blackgate.com/?p=1337#comment-447</guid>
		<description>No, I agree.  I think the question is just "how much needs to actually be real"?  Obviously, the story doesn't need to be &lt;i&gt;completely&lt;/i&gt; real, otherwise there'd be no such word as "Fantasy" in the first place.

I think this is really interesting because of how it leads to structural world-building elements:  essentially, in fantasy or science fiction, reality can be deviated from only explicitly.  Any time the author has not specifically given a cause for deviation, the audience presumes that the standard "Natural Default" rules apply.

In fantasy, the deviation can be a little easier, because by explicitly saying "Magic," you can include a lot of attendant implications that, by convention, are acceptable to a lot of fantasy readers--though, again interestingly, not to non-fantasy readers, who will still complain about how the weight-to-wingspan ratio of a dragon makes flight completely impossible.

You and I disagree about &lt;i&gt;Excession&lt;/i&gt; not because we disagree about what "Reality Standard" is in terms of pregnancy, but because we disagree about the implications attached to Banks' explicit depiction of Culture science:  for me, the implication suggests that any physical discomfort is eliminated by their super-advanced techno-health, even in extreme biological conditions.  But since Banks never says that, there's room for you to reject that implication, and thus view &lt;i&gt;Excession&lt;/i&gt; as an unforwarned deviation from the reality standard.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, I agree.  I think the question is just &#8220;how much needs to actually be real&#8221;?  Obviously, the story doesn&#8217;t need to be <i>completely</i> real, otherwise there&#8217;d be no such word as &#8220;Fantasy&#8221; in the first place.</p>
<p>I think this is really interesting because of how it leads to structural world-building elements:  essentially, in fantasy or science fiction, reality can be deviated from only explicitly.  Any time the author has not specifically given a cause for deviation, the audience presumes that the standard &#8220;Natural Default&#8221; rules apply.</p>
<p>In fantasy, the deviation can be a little easier, because by explicitly saying &#8220;Magic,&#8221; you can include a lot of attendant implications that, by convention, are acceptable to a lot of fantasy readers&#8211;though, again interestingly, not to non-fantasy readers, who will still complain about how the weight-to-wingspan ratio of a dragon makes flight completely impossible.</p>
<p>You and I disagree about <i>Excession</i> not because we disagree about what &#8220;Reality Standard&#8221; is in terms of pregnancy, but because we disagree about the implications attached to Banks&#8217; explicit depiction of Culture science:  for me, the implication suggests that any physical discomfort is eliminated by their super-advanced techno-health, even in extreme biological conditions.  But since Banks never says that, there&#8217;s room for you to reject that implication, and thus view <i>Excession</i> as an unforwarned deviation from the reality standard.</p>
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		<title>By: Judith Berman</title>
		<link>http://www.blackgate.com/2009/01/26/a-rather-cranky-post-on-verisimilitude-in-fantasy/comment-page-1/#comment-445</link>
		<dc:creator>Judith Berman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jan 2009 18:04:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.blackgate.com/?p=1337#comment-445</guid>
		<description>Oh, and about menarche. I was reading some compilation of medieval sources and most texts (although they all followed one or two authorities) placed it between 13 and 15, but of course they didn't distinguish in terms of income level or nutritional status. A French study I was just looking at cited statistics of 15 being the average age in the 18th c. Malnutrition may well have been more extreme in the decades before the Revolution. Average was about 12.7 in the mid 1990s, varying slightly by country. It's falling more with rising obesity rates.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, and about menarche. I was reading some compilation of medieval sources and most texts (although they all followed one or two authorities) placed it between 13 and 15, but of course they didn&#8217;t distinguish in terms of income level or nutritional status. A French study I was just looking at cited statistics of 15 being the average age in the 18th c. Malnutrition may well have been more extreme in the decades before the Revolution. Average was about 12.7 in the mid 1990s, varying slightly by country. It&#8217;s falling more with rising obesity rates.</p>
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		<title>By: Judith Berman</title>
		<link>http://www.blackgate.com/2009/01/26/a-rather-cranky-post-on-verisimilitude-in-fantasy/comment-page-1/#comment-444</link>
		<dc:creator>Judith Berman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jan 2009 17:58:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.blackgate.com/?p=1337#comment-444</guid>
		<description>I understood that in Excession she was supposed to be neurotic. I just couldn't believe in that particular response. It's not a health issue, it's the badly distributed extra weight, the way all your interior organs are squished.... 

I think that the way you make the impossible believeable--whether it is the Culture or Wonder Woman or magic swords/horses, is in fact by embedding it in what feels utterly real (even if it isn't really mimetic). Readers have to be able to identify at some level with the characters, be able to place themselves in the scene, or they won't experience the story.

But belching Edwardian script... that's starting to sound like Garth Nix.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I understood that in Excession she was supposed to be neurotic. I just couldn&#8217;t believe in that particular response. It&#8217;s not a health issue, it&#8217;s the badly distributed extra weight, the way all your interior organs are squished&#8230;. </p>
<p>I think that the way you make the impossible believeable&#8211;whether it is the Culture or Wonder Woman or magic swords/horses, is in fact by embedding it in what feels utterly real (even if it isn&#8217;t really mimetic). Readers have to be able to identify at some level with the characters, be able to place themselves in the scene, or they won&#8217;t experience the story.</p>
<p>But belching Edwardian script&#8230; that&#8217;s starting to sound like Garth Nix.</p>
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		<title>By: braak</title>
		<link>http://www.blackgate.com/2009/01/26/a-rather-cranky-post-on-verisimilitude-in-fantasy/comment-page-1/#comment-439</link>
		<dc:creator>braak</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Jan 2009 19:27:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.blackgate.com/?p=1337#comment-439</guid>
		<description>Hmm.  Well, in defense of Iain M. Banks, there's two things to keep in mind:  firstly, that the main character in &lt;i&gt;Excession&lt;/i&gt;'s desire for a 40-year pregnancy was indicative of a deeply powerful neurosis.  So, the average woman's response to pregnancy is necessarily not a good comparison.

The second thing is that most of the reasons that women don't want to prolong pregnancy have to do with the enormous amount of discomfort that it causes--something that is basically a non-issue among the ultra, almost superhumanly healthy members of the Culture.

This is pertinent; Banks created a universe where an implausible thing is really kind of plausible:  that is, if you accept his universe's rules at the outset, then the ordinarily unbelievable things should fit.  

But if swordsmen are swinging around swords without regard to health (and, speaking as a long-time fencer and Western Martial Arts enthusiast, let me say that a medieval longsword is even heavier and more unwieldy than a katana--so heavy that parries are much less likely actions than simple displacement), and horses are running a million miles a day, then the author has implicitly suggested that there is a new, special rule governing horses that was heretofore undiscussed.  It feels cheap.

Weirdly, I was just having a conversation about this--author's accuracy versus audience flexibility--on another site.  It had to do with Wonder Woman's new armor; on the one hand, her new armor was insanely idiotic from both a practical and aesthetic standpoint.  On the other hand, she could fly and was super strong, two characteristics which are already unbelievable.

Do I demand realism, in which case how can she fly on her own power?  Or do I accept non-realism, in which case I shouldn't be surprised if she turns into a jar of nuclear marmalade and starts belching Edwardian script?

Clearly, some kind of compromise is in order.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmm.  Well, in defense of Iain M. Banks, there&#8217;s two things to keep in mind:  firstly, that the main character in <i>Excession</i>&#8217;s desire for a 40-year pregnancy was indicative of a deeply powerful neurosis.  So, the average woman&#8217;s response to pregnancy is necessarily not a good comparison.</p>
<p>The second thing is that most of the reasons that women don&#8217;t want to prolong pregnancy have to do with the enormous amount of discomfort that it causes&#8211;something that is basically a non-issue among the ultra, almost superhumanly healthy members of the Culture.</p>
<p>This is pertinent; Banks created a universe where an implausible thing is really kind of plausible:  that is, if you accept his universe&#8217;s rules at the outset, then the ordinarily unbelievable things should fit.  </p>
<p>But if swordsmen are swinging around swords without regard to health (and, speaking as a long-time fencer and Western Martial Arts enthusiast, let me say that a medieval longsword is even heavier and more unwieldy than a katana&#8211;so heavy that parries are much less likely actions than simple displacement), and horses are running a million miles a day, then the author has implicitly suggested that there is a new, special rule governing horses that was heretofore undiscussed.  It feels cheap.</p>
<p>Weirdly, I was just having a conversation about this&#8211;author&#8217;s accuracy versus audience flexibility&#8211;on another site.  It had to do with Wonder Woman&#8217;s new armor; on the one hand, her new armor was insanely idiotic from both a practical and aesthetic standpoint.  On the other hand, she could fly and was super strong, two characteristics which are already unbelievable.</p>
<p>Do I demand realism, in which case how can she fly on her own power?  Or do I accept non-realism, in which case I shouldn&#8217;t be surprised if she turns into a jar of nuclear marmalade and starts belching Edwardian script?</p>
<p>Clearly, some kind of compromise is in order.</p>
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		<title>By: James Enge</title>
		<link>http://www.blackgate.com/2009/01/26/a-rather-cranky-post-on-verisimilitude-in-fantasy/comment-page-1/#comment-438</link>
		<dc:creator>James Enge</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Jan 2009 15:05:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.blackgate.com/?p=1337#comment-438</guid>
		<description>A great post, with lots to think about. I'd only note that the answers to biological issues won't necessarily be cut-and-dried. I looked into the menarche thing when I was writing "Payment in Full" and found that the Hippocratic writers put the time of menarche at thirteen. There's been some dispute about whether this was valid, but I figured that made it good enough for wordbuilding purposes.

Probably the main thing is not to use the elements thoughtlessly. A horse that performs like a car because the writer hasn't thought about the difference between a horse and a car is a cliche. A horse that performs like a car, or better, when the writer knows full well the limits of an ordinary horse, can be pretty interesting (e.g. the mighty Morgenstern vs. the other horses in the Amber series). A duellist should never breach courtesy except on purpose; likewise a fantasist should never breach realism except on purpose.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A great post, with lots to think about. I&#8217;d only note that the answers to biological issues won&#8217;t necessarily be cut-and-dried. I looked into the menarche thing when I was writing &#8220;Payment in Full&#8221; and found that the Hippocratic writers put the time of menarche at thirteen. There&#8217;s been some dispute about whether this was valid, but I figured that made it good enough for wordbuilding purposes.</p>
<p>Probably the main thing is not to use the elements thoughtlessly. A horse that performs like a car because the writer hasn&#8217;t thought about the difference between a horse and a car is a cliche. A horse that performs like a car, or better, when the writer knows full well the limits of an ordinary horse, can be pretty interesting (e.g. the mighty Morgenstern vs. the other horses in the Amber series). A duellist should never breach courtesy except on purpose; likewise a fantasist should never breach realism except on purpose.</p>
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		<title>By: Judith Berman</title>
		<link>http://www.blackgate.com/2009/01/26/a-rather-cranky-post-on-verisimilitude-in-fantasy/comment-page-1/#comment-435</link>
		<dc:creator>Judith Berman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Jan 2009 06:16:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.blackgate.com/?p=1337#comment-435</guid>
		<description>Yay, camels! They have camel beauty contests here. Who could have made that up?

A note on Tough Guide--it's not an encyclopedia but a satire of cliches, so you won't find the answers to all your research questions. I also had the experience reading it of thinking I hadn't read a lot of the books she had, but then I'd hit another entry that was spot on.

Regarding reality-challenged readers and reviewers, once you send a story out into the world you lose control of it, including how people will read it. Partly the problem is that reality is often much stranger than people think. For my most recent story ("Pelago," Feb. Asimov's) I did some research on how deep people could dive without pressure suits and discovered the world of competitive extreme diving. Record-holders have gone down 200 meters with no equipment except a wet suit--and that's a 8 or 9 minute swim back up to the surface with no air. Who could have made that up?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yay, camels! They have camel beauty contests here. Who could have made that up?</p>
<p>A note on Tough Guide&#8211;it&#8217;s not an encyclopedia but a satire of cliches, so you won&#8217;t find the answers to all your research questions. I also had the experience reading it of thinking I hadn&#8217;t read a lot of the books she had, but then I&#8217;d hit another entry that was spot on.</p>
<p>Regarding reality-challenged readers and reviewers, once you send a story out into the world you lose control of it, including how people will read it. Partly the problem is that reality is often much stranger than people think. For my most recent story (&#8221;Pelago,&#8221; Feb. Asimov&#8217;s) I did some research on how deep people could dive without pressure suits and discovered the world of competitive extreme diving. Record-holders have gone down 200 meters with no equipment except a wet suit&#8211;and that&#8217;s a 8 or 9 minute swim back up to the surface with no air. Who could have made that up?</p>
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