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	<title>Comments on: Reader vs. Reader</title>
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	<description>Adventures in Fantasy Literature</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 17 May 2012 03:02:40 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Vast and Cool and Unsympathetic &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Ways of experiencing fiction</title>
		<link>http://www.blackgate.com/2008/12/10/reader-vs-reader/comment-page-1/#comment-478</link>
		<dc:creator>Vast and Cool and Unsympathetic &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Ways of experiencing fiction</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Feb 2009 22:54:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.blackgate.com/?p=1285#comment-478</guid>
		<description>[...] fiction Feb04 4 February 2009, John Markley @ 6:54 pm   Via Grasping for the Wind, I came upon this interesting post by James Enge, in which Enge talks about the role played in each person by the “naïve reader” and the [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] fiction Feb04 4 February 2009, John Markley @ 6:54 pm   Via Grasping for the Wind, I came upon this interesting post by James Enge, in which Enge talks about the role played in each person by the “naïve reader” and the [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Snyder</title>
		<link>http://www.blackgate.com/2008/12/10/reader-vs-reader/comment-page-1/#comment-267</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Snyder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Dec 2008 19:05:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.blackgate.com/?p=1285#comment-267</guid>
		<description>I think it's pretty important to examine what we read. Of course, I think it's also important to find some reward in what we read, too. Which, of course, is your point, James.

There's a troubling amount of material in favorite pulp adventures that don't do well under that examining microscope, and I think pointing it out is worthwhile. 

Of course, doing so isn't always harmonious. The thing that strikes me about concerns of being too "politically correct" is that it's almost never about someone's analysis being wrong (it certainly happens, or at least interpretations differ). It's more often that the accusing person feels threatened -- as though someone else's examination or interpretation of fiction takes away meaning and pleasure in their life. 

What a strange idea. If such a thing is so easily taken, how valuable was it in the first place?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think it&#8217;s pretty important to examine what we read. Of course, I think it&#8217;s also important to find some reward in what we read, too. Which, of course, is your point, James.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s a troubling amount of material in favorite pulp adventures that don&#8217;t do well under that examining microscope, and I think pointing it out is worthwhile. </p>
<p>Of course, doing so isn&#8217;t always harmonious. The thing that strikes me about concerns of being too &#8220;politically correct&#8221; is that it&#8217;s almost never about someone&#8217;s analysis being wrong (it certainly happens, or at least interpretations differ). It&#8217;s more often that the accusing person feels threatened &#8212; as though someone else&#8217;s examination or interpretation of fiction takes away meaning and pleasure in their life. </p>
<p>What a strange idea. If such a thing is so easily taken, how valuable was it in the first place?</p>
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		<title>By: James Enge</title>
		<link>http://www.blackgate.com/2008/12/10/reader-vs-reader/comment-page-1/#comment-230</link>
		<dc:creator>James Enge</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Dec 2008 15:45:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.blackgate.com/?p=1285#comment-230</guid>
		<description>Thanks, you guys, for the comments and kind words.

Hey tchernabyelo: I was actually headed toward the "that was then, this is now" thing when I started writing, and I think it's a valid point. But I guess I can't go all the way on relativism either, and there were other people writing at the same time or earlier who had more realistic takes on race (like Dashiell Hammett, whose black characters don't tend to be monsters or matrys). But, however we do it, I think we have to find a way to separate moral judgements from esthetic ones. (That sounds a little pompous when talking about S&amp;S, I guess, but I can't think of a better set of terms.)

Hey Bill: I know what you mean. Sometimes I have to put a book aside and wait for the right reader to show up. (And sometimes he never does: a few books have been sitting in my "to be read" stacks for a long time.)

Hey Dave: Writing definitely changes the way I read. But sometimes I find I have to fight that, just read like a reader. Not sure if that means anything.

Hey John: I think this is true. There's no way to escape either reader, so we might as well try to make both happy. The trouble is, they don't always like the same thing--the sophisticated reader can often be a problem to the naive reader in this regard, as he gets so many of his ideas from other people.
&lt;blockquote&gt;NAIVE READER: Shiny spaceships and robots of death! Let's buy this book!

SOPHISTICATED READER: But this book where nanotechnology is used as a pretext for flaunting the author's graduate school work in American literature comes very highly recommended! We will buy this book, if you please.

NR: &lt;i&gt;I hate you! Get out of my head!&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
And so the long day wears on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, you guys, for the comments and kind words.</p>
<p>Hey tchernabyelo: I was actually headed toward the &#8220;that was then, this is now&#8221; thing when I started writing, and I think it&#8217;s a valid point. But I guess I can&#8217;t go all the way on relativism either, and there were other people writing at the same time or earlier who had more realistic takes on race (like Dashiell Hammett, whose black characters don&#8217;t tend to be monsters or matrys). But, however we do it, I think we have to find a way to separate moral judgements from esthetic ones. (That sounds a little pompous when talking about S&#038;S, I guess, but I can&#8217;t think of a better set of terms.)</p>
<p>Hey Bill: I know what you mean. Sometimes I have to put a book aside and wait for the right reader to show up. (And sometimes he never does: a few books have been sitting in my &#8220;to be read&#8221; stacks for a long time.)</p>
<p>Hey Dave: Writing definitely changes the way I read. But sometimes I find I have to fight that, just read like a reader. Not sure if that means anything.</p>
<p>Hey John: I think this is true. There&#8217;s no way to escape either reader, so we might as well try to make both happy. The trouble is, they don&#8217;t always like the same thing&#8211;the sophisticated reader can often be a problem to the naive reader in this regard, as he gets so many of his ideas from other people.</p>
<blockquote><p>NAIVE READER: Shiny spaceships and robots of death! Let&#8217;s buy this book!</p>
<p>SOPHISTICATED READER: But this book where nanotechnology is used as a pretext for flaunting the author&#8217;s graduate school work in American literature comes very highly recommended! We will buy this book, if you please.</p>
<p>NR: <i>I hate you! Get out of my head!</i></p></blockquote>
<p>And so the long day wears on.</p>
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		<title>By: John R. Fultz</title>
		<link>http://www.blackgate.com/2008/12/10/reader-vs-reader/comment-page-1/#comment-229</link>
		<dc:creator>John R. Fultz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Dec 2008 23:56:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.blackgate.com/?p=1285#comment-229</guid>
		<description>Isn't the truly GREAT story/novel the one that simultaneously pleases both the naive and sophisticated reader inside us? When I get distracted by either one of these, the story experience suffers. When you read Lord Dunsany, for instance, the absolute beauty of his prose stuns both the n. and s. readers to silence. R. Scott Bakker did this to me with his PRINCE OF NOTHING series. Clark Asthton Smith's ZOTHIQUE tales do this to me every time. As do (most recently) Martin's SONG OF ICE AND FIRE books. There are others, of course. But from my viewpoint--I have to get an equal (or semi-equal) satisfaction from my naive and sophisticated reader at the same time...or I end up putting the book down and never going back to it. Life is just too short to read something this lacking--in any way. Of course, that's just my personal preference. But why not demand that both readers' sensibilities be satisfied? 
Great blog, James...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Isn&#8217;t the truly GREAT story/novel the one that simultaneously pleases both the naive and sophisticated reader inside us? When I get distracted by either one of these, the story experience suffers. When you read Lord Dunsany, for instance, the absolute beauty of his prose stuns both the n. and s. readers to silence. R. Scott Bakker did this to me with his PRINCE OF NOTHING series. Clark Asthton Smith&#8217;s ZOTHIQUE tales do this to me every time. As do (most recently) Martin&#8217;s SONG OF ICE AND FIRE books. There are others, of course. But from my viewpoint&#8211;I have to get an equal (or semi-equal) satisfaction from my naive and sophisticated reader at the same time&#8230;or I end up putting the book down and never going back to it. Life is just too short to read something this lacking&#8211;in any way. Of course, that&#8217;s just my personal preference. But why not demand that both readers&#8217; sensibilities be satisfied?<br />
Great blog, James&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: NewGuyDave</title>
		<link>http://www.blackgate.com/2008/12/10/reader-vs-reader/comment-page-1/#comment-228</link>
		<dc:creator>NewGuyDave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Dec 2008 19:23:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.blackgate.com/?p=1285#comment-228</guid>
		<description>I had not considered these arguments in such specific context before. The speed that I read at, has slowed considerably in recent years and my analysis has certainly deepened. I find myself examining type of sentence structures and paragraphing, and what level of physical and sensory detail has been applied. 

Unfortunately, this has made some stories far less enjoyable than they would have been prior. 

I attribute this change to the desire to improve my own writing. Of course, some stories simply sing, and they silence the sophisticated reader entirely with their near-magical prose. For those, I am gladly willing to wait until I'm done before I dissect them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I had not considered these arguments in such specific context before. The speed that I read at, has slowed considerably in recent years and my analysis has certainly deepened. I find myself examining type of sentence structures and paragraphing, and what level of physical and sensory detail has been applied. </p>
<p>Unfortunately, this has made some stories far less enjoyable than they would have been prior. </p>
<p>I attribute this change to the desire to improve my own writing. Of course, some stories simply sing, and they silence the sophisticated reader entirely with their near-magical prose. For those, I am gladly willing to wait until I&#8217;m done before I dissect them.</p>
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		<title>By: Bill Ward</title>
		<link>http://www.blackgate.com/2008/12/10/reader-vs-reader/comment-page-1/#comment-227</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Ward</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Dec 2008 17:30:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.blackgate.com/?p=1285#comment-227</guid>
		<description>An excellent and well-considered look at the levels of reading James. This is something I think anyone that talks about books encounters, and especially if they must review books, where a lot of the subjectivity of taste really seems to have to do with the willingness or ability to read on one level or another at a given time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>An excellent and well-considered look at the levels of reading James. This is something I think anyone that talks about books encounters, and especially if they must review books, where a lot of the subjectivity of taste really seems to have to do with the willingness or ability to read on one level or another at a given time.</p>
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		<title>By: tchernabyelo</title>
		<link>http://www.blackgate.com/2008/12/10/reader-vs-reader/comment-page-1/#comment-226</link>
		<dc:creator>tchernabyelo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Dec 2008 17:21:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.blackgate.com/?p=1285#comment-226</guid>
		<description>There's another "reader dichotomy" which occurs when reading material written generations ago, and hat's between the cultural mores of the author's time, and those of the reader's time.   I've read a lot of revisionist reviews which will excoriate a given writer for his racism (I'm not accusing you of excoriation), but such criticism is easy from the vantage point of social hindsight.   It's very very difficult to transcend one's time in terms of social and cultural attitudes (otherwise those cultural attitudes would not be so easily perpetuated, and so slowly changed).   So while, on the one hand, it is entirely possible that Howard held some racist attitudes (there are certainly some aspects of Conan stories that lend themselves to a white-Supremacist viewpoint), it s arguably unfair to criticise him on the point because realistically, how would he have known better?    So I believe the right course is to point out where racism can be seen (and sexism, and class distinctions, and other social mores that we may now consider outdated), but not to attach any opprobrium to the writer, simply for the "failure" of not having been better than everyone else of his time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There&#8217;s another &#8220;reader dichotomy&#8221; which occurs when reading material written generations ago, and hat&#8217;s between the cultural mores of the author&#8217;s time, and those of the reader&#8217;s time.   I&#8217;ve read a lot of revisionist reviews which will excoriate a given writer for his racism (I&#8217;m not accusing you of excoriation), but such criticism is easy from the vantage point of social hindsight.   It&#8217;s very very difficult to transcend one&#8217;s time in terms of social and cultural attitudes (otherwise those cultural attitudes would not be so easily perpetuated, and so slowly changed).   So while, on the one hand, it is entirely possible that Howard held some racist attitudes (there are certainly some aspects of Conan stories that lend themselves to a white-Supremacist viewpoint), it s arguably unfair to criticise him on the point because realistically, how would he have known better?    So I believe the right course is to point out where racism can be seen (and sexism, and class distinctions, and other social mores that we may now consider outdated), but not to attach any opprobrium to the writer, simply for the &#8220;failure&#8221; of not having been better than everyone else of his time.</p>
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